Impetus for Ancients

I have only read the reviews of Impetus, but they seemed to me to be a solid, well-written and presented set.  I've had just the opposite experience of you, though. I am a GREAT fan of WAB, and can't stand DBA/etc. Anything with Phil Barker involved just bores me to tears. I've met the man, and had drinks with him and he's a wonderful old sod. His rules though... meh.  I feel the same about FOG: wading through charts that seem to have been designed to simply add steps to the system, as though the authors were being paid by the word and chart. 

 I'd be willing to give Impetus a try, however.

  Respects,

I have Impetus.  Although I haven't really given them a good going over just yet.  There is a free version, Basic Impetus, available at www.dadiepiombo.com/impetus2.html .   From what I understand, the basic version is very good as well. 

I purchased Impetus because I had heard many good things about it.  I just haven't had the motivation to get into it just yet.  For me, FoG moves at a snail's pace.  Maybe it's too much charts and details.  DBM gave me headaches.  DBA and big battle DBA I do like.  Good for pick up games and tournements.  Basic Impetus I've heard described as something that DBA should have been.  Simple but a better representation of ancient battles.  I have downloaded them and will give them a going over, soon. 

One thing that I do like about Impetus is the basing.  Unit sizes are double DBA/DBM "standard"  Base sizes are 80mm wide (two 40mm you see) with varying depths depending on type.  Number of figures per base is up to you.  It is just encouraged to have the unit look like the type it is supposed to represent. 

I hope this helps,
Ken

Dear Ken and Tim,

Thanks for the input from both of you.  I have downloaded and read through the basic Impetus rules and they do look rather playable.  I'm not sure if I would be willing to remount my ancients on to the very large bases that are pictures on their website though.  Great for dioramas, but you would only be able to use them for this one rules set.  I'll give the basic game a shot and see how it works out.

I agree with both you however that I am just sick of stacks of charts to represent every possible action in a game.  I remember reading once that Don Featherstone said the best set of rules could be put on an index card and I find myself agreeing with that more and more as the years go by.

Jim,

The basing for Impetus is more akin to Armati.  Which is double the size of DBA or DBM units.  Well, maybe that's not the best way to explain it.  Let's say you have 4 elements of DBA heavy infantry.  Each is 40mm wide by 15mm deep. (this is for 15mm miniatures by the way)   For Impetus you take those four elements and put them together, two up front, two behind.  Voila, you have an Impetus heavy infantry unit.  So, while you could rebase or creat dedicated units, you don't have to.  In fact, when I build an army I would rather it be flexible enough in basing that I won't have to rebase.  I used to play a lot of Armati (my personal favorite set of ancient rules) and all of my armies did double duty between that and DBA. 

Let me know if you try the basic rules and what you think.  I've been toying with the idea of putting on a light hearted ancients tournement next Huzzah.  Basic Impetus has an advantage in that the rules and army lists are free. 

Ken 

  Ken, I'd be more than willing to give it a try.

  FWIW:  If you want to try the game out with minis, and NOT worry about your existing troops, you have two options:

  1.) Buy a bunch of inexpensive plastic minis like Airfix, Zvezda, HaT, etc and just spray paint them a solid color for each side.

  2.) Just make up some bases out of mat board and paste the appropriate heraldry onto the tops to show what they are.

   Either way allows you to get into the game and see whether it's your cup of tea before jumping all in.

   Respects,

 1.) Buy a bunch of inexpensive plastic minis like Airfix, Zvezda, HaT, etc and just spray paint them a solid color for each side.   2.) Just make up some bases out of mat board and paste the appropriate heraldry onto the tops to show what they are.
 
What sort of talk is this??  It's Hippy talk I tells Ya! 
 
LOL.  But I do understand what you're saying.  What figures I do have painted already are based in such a way as to be able to play many types of ancients rules.  I just need more of them. 

Ken

That is Hippy Talk - sadly it makes a little sense.

Actually, running an ancients tournament next Huzzah was something that came up at the August meeting and met with general approval.  Basic Impetus does look like a good set of rules to use in such a venue.  I'll give it a try by just pushing around some of my current ancients in little clumps and calling them units and see how the game works.

Jim

That is Hippy Talk - sadly it makes a little sense.

Jim

-jimflanagan

 Darn tootin' it makes sense! I'm not going to buy a lot of lead and invest time and treasure into painting it up just to find out that the rules suck. I made that mistake with Tactica.   

Hello.
Having hunted for ages for a set of Ancients rules that works for me, I have also gone through Tactica, the various WRGs and DBxs, Tactica, Warhammer, Hacks, Armati, etc., and I have found that Ancient Warfare by Terry Gore is the best I've used by far.

The big problem for me in Ancients is the tournament play. Because tournaments routinely have armies from vastly different times and places facing each other, any set of rules that will allow tournament play is skewed historically for that. Since I play armies that actually met (or could have) and not fantasy match-ups, my needs for games are different.

Tactica is very good historically for the period it covers (basically designed for Rome and the enemies thereof), but I just dislike the way it plays and the artificiality of the "continuous line" rule. Consider the fighting at Arbela, for instance, where Alexander's army would have been ruled to have lost early on by Tactica but they won instead.

I used to have a set by Gary Gygax (no kidding) that was subdivided for different periods of Ancients with the note that play across periods would not work because the armies were too different. Kind of refreshing, really....

Bob Bailey

  Was that "Chainmail" per chance?

 Darn tootin' it makes sense! I'm not going to buy a lot of lead and invest time and treasure into painting it up just to find out that the rules suck. I made that mistake with Tactica.

I hear ya, brother.  I did the same thing.  But, man that rule book looked nice.  LOL

The big problem for me in Ancients is the tournament play. Because tournaments routinely have armies from vastly different times and places facing each other, any set of rules that will allow tournament play is skewed historically for that. Since I play armies that actually met (or could have) and not fantasy match-ups, my needs for games are different.

Yes, I agree.  With a tournament you really need to keep telling yourself it's just a game and the idea is to do your best with the game.  Sometimes a historical match up does occur.  But in my limited experience, more often than not the game is something ahistorical.  I had a friend in California who ran Armati tournements.  He did try to limt the armies to certain periods and while that did help to keep the armies more historical and better matched, it did limit participation because not everyone had an army to field in that particular time period.  Another issue with tournaments is someone playing an uber (good lord, did I just write uber??) powerful army that has an advantage right from the start. 

Ken

Ken, oh yes... I still have a copy on my shelf, lured into buying because of all the pretty playthings in color... 

I dropped out of the WH40K circuit because of all the rules lawyer and power gamers. Of course the idea is to win, but it's also a game, not a professional sport and you ought to be having fun whilst doin it.

I did decide to get into the Flames of War bit, though. I've been eyeing it for a couple years and decided to take the plunge when I saw the "Bridge Too Far" supplement. What i like about FoW is that they divide the tournaments in either early, middle, or late war and you only play against other armies from that era.

   But I'd be up for a tryout of Impetus anytime.

Just to show how "ancient" I actually am I still have my original copy of Chainmail.  Maybe I should pull that off the shelf and give it another go.

I seem to be in the majority here as I loath unhistorical tournament play.  I have always tried to game in historical periods that provided interesting matches and although not all my Greek Hoplites come from the same century, at least they are all Greek hoplites and my Romans fight generic barbarians, but never Crusaders.

One reason I was interested in anyone's opinion on Impetus was that it did not appear from their website that there were as locked into tournament play as all the Brits seem to be.  I'll give the basic game a shot without any rebasing (done with that!) and let people know how it goes.

And Bob - out of curiosity - what is it about Terry Gore's rules that seems to set them apart from the rest?

Jim

I still have my copy of Chainmail from about '80 somewhere in a box in the basement. I don't think I've looked at those rules since.

Time for another look.

Mike

  You know, I remember when TSR added a 2-page supplement to Chainmail to allow folks to play with Arthur, Merlin, St George and the Dragon, etc.  That became so popular that it was used as the basis for "Dungeons & Dragons". 

  It's amazing to think that I was actually gaming in a world where D&D didn't exist. Sort of the original "Land That Time Forgot"....... 

Hello.
Actually, it wasn't Chainmail. This one was much larger and more comprehensive, lots of army lists and the like. It came out in the 1980s. I think it was named Ancient Battles or some such.

Bob Bailey

I bet "Classic Warfare" is what you have in mind:

It's over on one of the shelves, like eevrything else...

Allen

  I'll bet you are right! I remember those rules.

FWIW  The Impetus rules and "gang" come out of Italy and are really large in Spain as well.  I have  read the rules many times and really liked the 4 bse unit or block idea a lot.  Chris P.