Ancients Tournament?

I'm afraid my ancients experience is limited to Armati (2nd edition) and DBA.  If it were me who was to throw together a tourney it would probably be DBA,.  15mm, Book 2 armies.  Bring your own army. 
Not sure how well that would go over with the masses, though.
Ken

Mike - If you would like to help organize an Ancients Tournament for Friday of Huzzah I am sure that there would be a lot of interest.  Pick whatever rules you like.  Personally, I played BBDBA for many years, but would be happy to put together a force for Warmaster.  I have never played it, but would give it a shot.  I looked at WAB once and own the rules, but were not very impressed.

Anybody else have some thoughts?

You know its one of those to each is own type of things. We play a lot of Warhammer Ancient Battles in Charlotte, it may have been the most played historical rule set down there with the group I gamed with. 

Does it make sense to run a set of rules if no one plays? I'd be glad to do Warmaster tournament if it makes sense. Maybe a 1,000 point tournament? Easy to get stated and paint.

Have never tried Armati, and didn't like DBA. What about FOG?

Just thinking out loud.

What sort of time slot is available on Friday for a tournament?   I played in an Armati tournament, once, that took about 6 hours to complete.  And there were only 6 players.  Personally, I think Armati is a great game but there just isn't a lot of people who play it. 

I have many friends who play FoG in the Virginia area.  They are fans but I've heard the game is quite long to play.  I have the rules but have never played them. 

I have not played Warmaster Ancients and I don't own the rules.  I would be willing to purchase them and put together an army.  I'm a terrible general and could lose just as easy with an unfamiliar set as with anything else.    If you decide to run this be sure to announce your parameters here so we could put together whatever we need. (army...etc....)  For me, I don't have much painted and will have to, in all probability, put something together from scratch. 

My only thoughts for DBA were that the games run quick, the armies are small and somewhat easier to put together quickly (we only have a little over three months, right?) and, you could download the WADBAG guide which would help new players immensely. 

Another thought would be Basic Impetus.  Free rules and lists off of the internet.  I hear the games run quick and the armies aren't too large.  Not sure how many play them up here but that could be an advantage......everyone has an equal playing field for learning. 

Just a few thoughts.
Ken

There are two elements to deal with if we want to put together a tournament.  The first is the rules and the second is scale.  I would be willing to put together an army for whatever set of rules is chosen, but my armies are all 25mm which I collected in the 1970's and 1980's, although this might provide me the impetus to finally finish those Macedonians I have been working on for several years.

I have not played FOG, but I have the rules and it does not look like these would create a quick battle although they might be very good for an historical recreation.

The choice probably comes down to WAB, DBA or Basic Impetus.

As Mike stated previously people have different preferences based upon their personal likes and dislikes, but here is a chance to rev up ancient wargaming here in the north.  I hope that people might weigh in on the positives and negatives of each of these rulesets for a convention setting.

Ken is absolutely correct that we only have three months to put this together so let's see if we can start generating some ideas.

The only other thought I have is that Hail Caesar - the Black Powder variant  for ancients - should be available soon.  Maybe we could get advance copies and use these?  It would be a clean playing field since they would be new to everyone.

Thoughts?

If Hail Caesar is anything like Black Powder, it'll be less than ideal for a competitive format. I like Black Powder a lot, but I wouldn't want to play it without an umpire or highly cooperative players. I have an Ancient German army in 25mm that makes a passable force in the old WAB, and a horrible army in FoG. My personal opinion of WAB is that it's fun and more game than simulation. I haven't picked up the new version. I played FoG a couple of times. It plays smoothly enough once you figure it out, but is about as much fun as doing my taxes. My experience was doubtless shaped by the choice of a barbarian army, though. FoG is points based, but I don't think it's possible to build a viable barbarian force.

One think nice about Warmaster is that you can pickup a starter army for about $60 to $70 from Pendraken or if you are an Old Glory Army member you can build a nice 10mm army at a good price. I have two Old Glory 10mm armies and one Pendraken and both are nice. Bases can be had from GF9 or GW still sells the Warmaster bases cheap. I prefer the GW bases and may have a life time supply in the basement. :-)

I'd be willing to try Basic Impetus, free is always nice. Has anyone played the rules? What list are available for free? Guess I'm off to the site to explore.

I haven't had a chance to read Black Powder, but I thought it was based on Warmaster, converted to 25mm? I've been looking at the rules, but haven't purchased yet.

I agree that WAB is more game than simulation, that's why I like it. Fast to play and easy to understand is a big plus in my book as I get old. I have not yet picked up V2 myself.

So what we going to do?

Hi, guys.

Great to see some talk of a tournament for Friday.  How long would a tournament run?

I play Warrior Rules by Four Horsemen Enterprises its the old WRG 7.5 updated and also FOG.

Normally each round last about two hours. Depends on what we are playing I would guess. The only tournament experience I have is WAB and Warmaster (well and FOW, but that really doesn't apply here). 1,000 point Warmaster battles can easily be done in an hour.

Looks like everyone of us plays a different rule set. Cool! More to learn!

BTW looked at Basic Impetus. I can easily do an army out of what I have. May even give me reason to finish the one I've got about half painted. The rules are only nine pages, which is nice. If anyone wants to give this a play test let me know?

I'm still really interested in trying FOG, but not necessarily in a tournament setting if anyone wants to give it a try sometime.

BTW if you have your army based on washers or squares (I normally use GW bases in 20mm and 25mm from GF9) you can easily make Basic Impetus movement trays. All troops are units are mounted on boards with a 12cm frontage. Base depth varies between 3cm and 6cm for infantry. Chariots, Artillery and Elephants can be up to 8cm deep. They only recommend one unit per base for these, but one light chariot or elephant on a 12cm wide base may look strange?

There is no recommended miniature count per base, so you can do what looks good with the figures you have. Most of my infantry units would mount 6 by 2 or 6 by 3, however I would think about doing 5 x 2 or 5 x 3 because it may look better. 

Mikey,

Your measurements for Basic Impetus are for the 25/28mm size figures.  Would that be the size of figures you would like to see used in a tournament?   I will see about putting something together, details wise, for a tournament but I would like input, from those interested, in figure size. 

Also, table size for a 25mm figure game will be about 4x6.  Would there be any issues with that?  With 15mm we could go smaller but how many potential players have or want a 15mm tournament?

Dean,

A tournament would probably run about 5 to 6 hours, roughly.  I anticipate about 1.5 hours per round with a 3 round format.   Factor in a small break in between rounds.   We can put a strict time limit on games and have a scoring system so that results can be obtained, regardless of outcome (or lack, thereof). 

Ken

Ken:

Yes, I was talking 25/28mm. Jim and Chris had mention that his armies were in that size, as are mine. The only 15mm I have are based for FOG. Everything else I have are 10mm Warmaster, for for Basic Impetus I'm leaning toward 25/28mm. I'd like to playtest some games because with the number of units in Basic Impetus I think we can get by with at 4' x 4' table, but I'm not sure. Hittite force consist of 9 units and the Assyrian force is 10 units. My normans would only field 7 or 8 units. I actually prefer a 6' x 4' table because it give more room to move.

There are tournament rules here: http://www.dadiepiombo.com/1dt2.html

and scoring system here: http://www.dadiepiombo.com/pts2.html

This has been a very interesting conversation and I am hoping that it will lead to something at Huzzah this year.  With that in mind let me make a suggestion.  It seems that there are some devoted fans of the DBA system out there, but they are not thrilled with WAB.  The reverse also seems to be quite true.  I would also venture that nobody seems that excited about FOG.  However, the common upbeat thread is that everyone seems to have a desire to try Impetus, although nobody has any extensive experience.

Can we possibly get a count of how many people would be willing to try a Basic Impetus Tournament during Huzzah?  We would use the free set of Basic Impetus rules that are on the net combined with the free army lists that they offer.  The scale would be 25mm.  The company that produces Impetus also has some tournament rules on their website.

I am not sure what critical mass we need to hit, but I think if we could get 6-12 people who lurk around this website to commit, that we could double that with "outsiders" once we publish it.

Please write back on the forum and let everyone know what you think of this idea so that we can get started on it.

Jim

Jim,

For the record, I am willing to play in a Basic Impetus Tournament.  25mm is good with me although that means I need to  paint an army up.  I have time, though.  I've only done a quick browse of the tournament rules on the web site but they seem straight forward enough. 

My only other thoughts on this would be to limit which lists can be used.  I was thinking of lists 1 thru 13.  That would be biblical up to later Dark Ages.  List 14 starts the Viking era and my thinking was not to cross that line into medieval.  I'm not stuck on this idea, though, so if players would rather make all lists available that is good, too.  I was just trying to limit the tournament to an "ancient" time frame.  Also, a few lists have options.  Would you allow a player to change their lists during the tournament or just keep an army the same throughout?

I wouldn't mind seeing some bonus points added to one's score for sportsmanship and such.  I've seen some tournaments go bad because of win at all costs types of play.   Everyone should be encouraged to do their best and win but, to me, the driving force should be to have fun. 

Ken

Ken - I have never actually played in a tournament before since all of my ancient gaming has been either historical re-enactments or campaigns with historical opponents.  My vote, therefore, would be to try and keep the lists as compact as possible so I would be fine ending with the early Crusades or thereabouts.  If enough people get engaged maybe we could tournaments in different eras in the future.

Anyway - that's two of us.

Guys:

I can live with that range. Gives me motivation to get painting my Hittites. I would require people to keep the same list through out the tournament, just to keep things simple.

Let me see if the D&P folks will sponsor us with a free set of rules or something? 

We going to let everyone play or is one of us going to have to sit out and run this thing?

Time to start making movement trays!

Jim,

My thinking about limiting the time era was that last year the medieval era was represented with a game or two.  Ancients had the Sabis battle and a board game I believe?  With the Viking Dawn game going on this Huzzah I was thinking nothing past that time period.  There is already going to be a great many Vikings and Saxons running around the con!  So it's purely in the interest of "showing the ancients colors" so to speak.  I know that some had expressed a displeasure about non historical match ups.  Tournaments are usually the worst when it comes to that.  But if you narrow the focus too much then you exclude potential entrants. 

For anyone who is reading this and is interested, go to www.dadiepiombo.com/impetus.html  Click on Basic Impetus. 
You will find the rules, completely free to download, along with army lists.  If you're interested speak up here so we know if a tournament is feasible.  It looks like it would be run the Friday portion of Huzzah. 

Ken 

OK - now we have three people.

Ken - you are absolutely right about the Viking era being a cut-off date.  How would it be if we thought 500 BC to 500 AD as a time frame?  Does that fit with the army lists you were thinking about?