Hi SdKfz,

I always liked history and military history in particular.  Probably because of books on WWII my father had around when we were kids as he was a veteran of that war.  I went from that to board games like Risk, Stratego, Broadsides, etc and from that to AH and S&T games a friend introduced me to (not to mention Diplomacy).  I kept up with boardgames til college and there discovered naval miniatures and all the rest from there.  We also used to do a lot of modern 1/285 (at the time that was the Arab Israeli War of 73), ACW, ECW and Napoleonics.  Then a long hiatus for work and family and now that my kids are interested in it we are back into with a smattering of everything but a ton of 15mm FOW.  I dont know where you are located but you are welcome to play with us in the Bangor area anytime and welcome to the forum.  Take care.

Bill

Hello.
Sorry this is so long, but you hit my "rant" button.
 
I started with Avalon Hill games (LOTS of them, over time), but I always wanted to use model soldiers. I had a huge collection of Airfix plastic infantry, but buying the vehicles (and assembling them, in that scale) was beyond my means.
 
Fortunately, between my home in Bangor and my grandparents' home in Belfast lay the old Toy Soldier in Searsport. There I bought my first rules (Grosstaktik and Tractics, both of which I still play from time to time) and got started with GHQ micro-armor. More importantly, I got encouragement and advice from Pete Rice. He still says he has regretted bringing me into the hobby ever since.  ;-)
 
The best thing about this hobby, hands down, is the people in it.
 
Your story brings something else to mind, and it's a problem my church shares. We do not market this hobby well. To be brutally honest, we hardly market it at all. We spread the word among those of us who are already involved, but our outreach to potential gamers is horrible. Most of the flyers and ads I have seen have been weak at best, especially those from the "powerhouse" organizations like HMGS East.
 
I have done some flyers (not great, but not bad) and tried posters off and on (and have even thought about things like TV ads on the local cable network, on the Military Channel), but I don't market well, either. My contention is as follows:
 
Assume that 1/2 of 1% of the population would be interested in historical miniature gaming, which is probably a low figure. That means that there would be some 5,000 potential gamers in Maine alone. How many do we know? Not THAT many, for sure. So, we need to get the word out that we exist. That will get the "first wave" in, the folks who are interested enough to take a look. (Those are the folks who are likely to become GMs in the future.) They, in turn, will spread the word about the hobby, thereby bringing in the "second wave". Then, we're off and running, as are the manufacturers, hobby shops, and so on.
 
The biggest marketing points of the hobby are three. One we do well at conventions and the like, the universal attraction of the miniatures themselves. This stuff is stunning visually. (That, by the way, is why I have been going to larger scales in games, to increase that attraction.)
 
The second is one that we do well once someone shows an interest, the people in the hobby. You folks are welcoming and always willing to help someone out.
 
The third is one that we don't think about, the price. As GMs, we think in terms of the price of books, dice, rules, tapes, figures, paint, brushes, terrain, and the time necessary to produce a game. I will grant you that that price is not for the faint of heart.
 
However, any GM will tell you that what they really want is about 6-8 players for their game. So, with a ratio of 6 or 8 to 1, there should be the proverbial bleepload of people who play rather than GM. For those folks, the price is pretty near zero. They come and play with other people's toys, and we who have the toys are REALLY glad to have them do so.
 
Now, consider the competition, the video game. The cost of the system is high enough to pay for a pretty good game starter kit. Add to that games at $50 apiece, and gaming comes in about even with them, if you GM. With the video games, once you beat the game, you trade it in and thereby get the next one at about $40. How many times a year do you do that? Miniature games are now cheaper, as a GM.
 
As a player, it's no contest at all.
 
Now consider that you will NEVER beat the game in this hobby, and you will actually MEET OTHER PEOPLE. Also, the scenarios and types of games are only limited by your imagination and willingness to do the work to make it happen. This is a better deal all the way around.
 
If we had the 5,000 gamers, we could get an overload of players for a straight refight of the First Day on the Somme.
 
Here ends the marketing rant. Thanks be to God.
 
Bob Bailey
Bangor, Maine

Thanks to both of you for sharing your views.

     Even as a green recruit, I find myself feeling obligated to try and help bring this game to more people. I think its most certainly because of my belated introduction to the game that I feel this way. As I said before, I was a perfect candidate for the tabletop but it passed me by somehow.
   I definately agree with you that miniature gaming is very visually appealing and that is a draw at conventions and the like. I also can see a small problem there. Im not going to pretend to be more informed than I am, Ive yet to attend my first Con (looking forward to SnoCon and Huzzah! 2012) but I will pose a question to you vets. Who is being attracted at the conventions? Cardflippers? Collectors? It almost seems to me like its just drawing niche people into a smaller corner of the niche. Im not sure if that clearly explains the point Im trying to make but....    it seems miniature gamers market, just not very often outside thier circles. Its like trying to get more people to farm... at a farming convention.
   Dont get me wrong, since Ive begun this endeavour people have been spectacular in every aspect. I had countless mini enthusiasts who helped facilitate my entry into the hobby. The various forums and websites online were a fountain of information and there was always someone there to help and encourage me with everything from paint and brush choices to what rules I might want to consider. I actually owe it to some good folks at GHQ forums for sending me this way. I was beggining to think I was alone in Maine with my toys :-( 
   So you said it Bob, miniature wargaming does have a very powerful marketing tool... its people. My father used to say,"if thats the tool you have then swing it". But even a "grassroots" marketing system needs a vehicle to propel it. It seems that as of now, gamers are the "advertisment" and vendors and shops serve as the "vehicle" that propels or supports them. Like I said before though, its seems like this system is too internal. While it serves to draw other gamers into our small corner it is by no means far reaching. Now Im not under the illusion that an everyday joe is going to be drawn into wargaming and miniature gaming will never be "mainstream" or "popular" among the masses but I know there are people out there that just dont know there is an outlet for thier interests.
   So why are these people being missed? I offer my novice opinion on this. I know Im still new to the hobby but I offer what observations I have made in the past year. I find that it is misleading to think that all gamers are alike (not that I needed to tell you this) cardflippers seem to have little interest in wargaming for the most part and this often seems the same for roleplayers. There are exceptions of course but Im speaking very generally. Usually when Magic players or D&D fans go to minis its because thier game of choice has released its own mini or collectable game. In my opinion these people are looking for adventure and fantasy having little interest in history or warfare and its doctrine. Even some of the miniature games out there have little to do with actual warfare or are devoid of tactics or real strategy elements. An example would be a mini game I watched between two players last winter. I think it was WoW miniature or something, I cant be sure but each player had a party or "squad" sized force of orcs and wizards or paladins and clerics or somesuch. Anyway I quickly noticed that the game had little to do with manuevering and tactics and the strategy was mostly based on initiative and "special powers" each figure had. At one point I even suggested to a player that his opponent had a very exposed flank and without looking up he says "what do you  mean?" So after explaining what a flank was and how one might exploit an ungaurded one, he waves it off and explains that it has no bearing in the game they are playing. I refrained from telling them that they were playing a collectible card game with overpriced 3D cards. I mean the only purpose movement even played was to get into or out of range! That being said my opinion is that even miniature gamers are not nessecarily one and the same. Now let me quickly clarify something I should have said before, I consider miniature gaming and miniature "war"gaming seperate entities, miniature gamers play games with miniatures whereas miniature "war"gamers play games with miniatures that involve realistic and sometimes historical army compositions comprehensive tactics and real doctrines of warfare. Notice I didnt say historical wargaming because I still consider say a sci-fi game a wargame or what-ifs as long as they offer a realistic and comprehensive experience in at least the rudiments of basic warfare doctrine (ie: flanking, retreat, command etc etc). I lean towards historical wargaming (including what-ifs and why-nots) but love any wargame historical or not that represents well the principals of warfare. Ive found however that I dont enjoy just pushing colorful robots around a grid to some purpose not yet understood. Others however it seems like this approach.
   So in view of all this I think the point is that gamers are not nessecarily the target audience for miniature wargamers. I know how silly that sounds but in my opinion it is becoming more apparent the deeper I get into this hobby that the unifiying factor among us is not just "gaming". Now please dont mistake my words, I think that every gamer no matter thier choice of style is an asset to fostering and furthering this past time but for the sake of understanding where the future of the miniature wargaming is headed Im trying to differentiate and isolate just what is the commonality among people who truly love miniature wargaming.
        One of the old schoolers on the GHQ forum actually related a story to me that I think is significant to the subject. Before the internet helped to foster a healthy wargaming community and people were passing xeroxed homemade rules around clandestine basement games (some of you Im sure remember this;-) He says that they used to actually check out military history books from the library and then cold call from the list in the back of others who had checked it out previously to try and find gamers. What amazed me was he said they would actually find some people to play this way!  
   So is this the unifying factor? A love of war? Of history? I know not all wargamers are history buffs but this is where the commonality seems to be consistent. A real interest in the doctrines of warfare, strategy, tactics and the evolution thereof and dramatic and caustic effects its had on mankind is what drafted me into this realm and the more I explore it the more I find like minded people.
    To conclude, Im not saying that there is any one good way to draw people to miniature wargaming or that what people are doing now isnt working to its part in drawing newcomers. I guess Im more trying to dispel the polarity and help people see "the gray".  Because there are people in those gray areas who would love miniature wargaming and those are the people who are more likely to miss it.
    I was anxious to hear how others came into the hobby and what it meant to them because I think this gives an essential clue as to how we can find others who share the passion and spark that passion in those that are unaware of miniature wargaming. Bob, the fact that your posting took a turn towards this very subject is interesting. Maybe great Bob's just think alike.
                                                                                           Thank You,
                                                                                                      Bob Fickett

Hello.
Bob, I agree with you. I think that the most productive "door" for seeking new gamers is history. That's why I send posters to history departments and ROTC departments when I send them. I have found that marketing to card gamers, fantasy gamers (including those with miniature fantasy armies), and role-players to be pretty much a dead end.

There are exceptions, of course, but they are rare. Usually, the best I get is a "that's nice..." sort of response.

On conventions, we need to get the word out to the general public rather than just informing other gamers. We simply don't do that, and media outlets tend not to help us out. It's war! Egad! We can't do stories on that! Think of the kids!

Bob Bailey

I think the strike rate might be higher amongst people who already play wargames. Like it or not Games Workshop is the road by which a great many people find the hobby. Playing games and putting on events focused on the existing gaming areas (clubs shops ect) to lure people out of the grim darkness of the far future and into the past is probably a good way to increase the fold.

Hello.
Scano, I've found that the fantasy and science fiction communities have shown far less interest than even an ordinary group of teenagers. The response is usually, "Meh, that's nice," and they move on. You'rs far better off if the history matters to them.
 
That said, I have had Warhammer players try out a modern scenario, but that was as far as it went. The vast majority of fantasy and sci-fi players play their games specifically because it isn't history, in my experience. Even if a game is fun for them, they are more likely to take the concepts of my game away to add to theirs than to stay with historicals.
 
I am decidedly NOT saying we shouldn't advertise to fantasy, science fiction, video, and card gamers. We should leave no stone unturned, as it were. However, I am cautioning against great expectations. The field is more fertile where a history interest exists.
 
At the same time, it amazes me that any real interest in history survives the educational process up through the baccalaureate level. Memorizing names, dates, and places to pass multiple choice exams should kill any interest stone dead. I would REALLY like to have the time to go to local schools and teach some history as story, with the miniatures and terrain as illustration. That would be the best advertising we could do, and the biggest favor for historical motivation.
 
The biggest thing to keep in mind as GMs is that what we need is PLAYERS more than GMs. Don't sell the hobby in terms of getting an army and running games, but in terms of coming to games to play on OPM, Other People's Miniatures. Then it's a freebie and they get to have fun without trying to develop scenarios, collect & paint troops, and so on.
 
Bob Bailey

Well I might as well hit the rant bottom too..lol now hold on this will be fun

I. Growing The Hobby: Why? How? Who?

Three Questions: How important is ‘growth’ to the hobby of Historical Miniatures Gaming? How do we go about it? Who bears the task of “Growing the Hobby?”

Why “Grow The Hobby?

If we define ‘growth’ as increasing the quantity of gamers gaming everywhere, one question that comes to mind is “Why?” If one is satisfied with the quantity and quality of the local gaming scene, then why should we seek to promote it any further? Many gamers don’t. But I would identify some reasons (Beneficial to us all) for each of us to “GROW THE HOBBY.”

These reasons include:

1) Increased demand = increased supply, types, and variations available.

2) Increased volume = increased suppliers: locations and sources.

3) Increased volume = decreased markup: costs drop.

4) Increased finances = resource improved Convention and Club QUALITY.

5) Increased Quality = increased games/gaming events/participating gamers

6) Increased gamers = increased choices in scales/periods/types available.

7) Increased groups = increased INFORMATION on gaming ideas and projects.

8) Increased gamers = increased ‘gene-pool’ of ‘your-type’ players.

9) Increased familiarity = increase acceptance/respect for hobby.

10) Increased gamers = multiply propagation of #1 though #9.

 

Now note, some may not want all of these things. Some only call for: "Some figures and some local friends to play." However, a continually diminishing and smaller hobby could eventually put us back to the OLD days of: (a) modifying plastic Airfix figures (Example: Britons and WWI Germans to resemble Zulu's and Brits.) (b) Playing every game with either a disinterested family member or the ONLY other gamer in town (Who might spoil every game for you, but who else would you have?), and (c) Having to research 100% of your own Historical sources (which are often short of essential war game information: OB, Map, and Scenario details). I know this is “slippery-slope” logic, but it’s mostly figurative. The REAL benefit of promoting the hobby is the opposite of “obscurity.” I no longer have a problem recruiting HS kids to Historical Miniatures since I realized they were familiar with and respected Warhammer. When I say: “This is historical warhammer!”: I gain immediate rapport with them. Anything “obscure” gets little

recognition, little support, limited resources, and least of all “respect.”

The benefits resulting from promoting growth of the hobby are enjoyed by all, regardless of where one’s satisfaction is sought. There are many ideas and projects for promoting a growth plan.

But why do all that? Don't we just want some figures and some local friends to play against? The bottom line in justifying growth is this: The hobby of Historical Miniatures Gaming will grow regardless of those who refrain from helping to promote it, but it will grow no further than the capacity rendered by those who do step forward to promote it.

 

How Grow The Hobby?

The first prerequisite to growth is quality... THEN, and only then, can it increase through  quantity. This is a vital principle: "Rise and Expansion." We can have “rise without expansion,” but “expansion without “rise” would be a mess. (And not "true rise” since it will factionalize from discontent.) R&E requires first a "Rise" in two categories:

Group and organizational quality: This induces a natural exponential "Expansion" (which would also provide more sources for individual quality in more key roles/positions.)

Individual quality: Developing your own game is the “logical progression” for all gamers. We all become our own Game Master.

The hobby of Historical Miniatures Gaming is unique from Board gaming or Model Railroading in that new hobbyists truly require some earnest mentorship from others to even begin. While you can buy a model, a Basic Train set, or a copy of Axis and Allies, and then proceed with family, friends and almost anyone not already into the hobby, Historical Miniatures are different. You need more than just your cousin to play against you once a year.

You Need A Game Master

Every Historical Miniatures Gamer who matures in the hobby becomes a GAME MASTER. Some may not enjoy it or do it for long, but all who mature in the hobby reach the point where they are able to do so.
Some even reach the point where they often GM but don’t actually play anymore. But, it is the Game Masters who provide both the stimulus for recruiting new gamer interest and the mentorship required for growth in the hobby. Which then answers our third question: Who bears the task of “Growing the Hobby?” While the local game store and other organizations bear the responsibility of this goal, it is the Game Masters (you the gamer) who will execute that goal.

Although these are very important, there's more to hobby growth than store owners, organizations, and game masters.  The individual gamers can contribute, too.

Hello.
That's a key point that I keep making. I'd LOVE to have about 6 more steady gamers in my group, and they don't ever have to buy a miniature or run a game. Just come so we have more players in the game.

Those extra gamers make for bigger games and more interests, which leads to the growth in the industry noted above.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Bob Bailey

Right Bob, we are down to two regulars at CRG. At the peak with 5 it was great fun, the guys would pick the period or rule set and I'd put together a game and bring the toys they just needed to show up and play. With a bigger group you have so many more options. The other bonus was the bigger group would often atract more attention an we could pull in others.

We have the GM's but are having a hard time compeating with all of the other attractions out there.

Wayne

I always liked history and military history in particular.  Probably because of books on WWII my father had around when we were kids as he was a veteran of that war.  I went from that to board games like Risk, Stratego, Broadsides, etc and from that to AH and S&T games a friend introduced me to (not to mention Diplomacy).  I kept up with boardgames til college and there discovered naval miniatures and all the rest from there.  We also used to do a lot of modern 1/285 (at the time that was the Arab Israeli War of 73), ACW, ECW and Napoleonics.  Then a long hiatus for work and family and now that my kids are interested in it we are back into with a smattering of everything but a ton of 15mm FOW.  I dont know where you are located but you are welcome to play with us in the Bangor area anytime and welcome to the forum.  Take care.

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